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#17092 - 06/22/16 08:34 PM Backhoe Main Pivot Construction Question
Old as Dirt Offline
New in town
Registered: 05/15/16
Posts: 9
Loc: TX USA
Some several years ago I ran across "myfordtractors.com" and printed off the build sequence for a backhoe on a Ford 8N as a reference. Recently I went thru "500 Passwords" UTube videos.

I'm in TX about 40 mi NW of city center. We had a drought which killed grass, trees, etc lasted several years. Last couple of years we've been nominated for the "ARK" award with water everywhere. My yard still has not recovered from being baked and then washed away.

I live on a mountain (134' above sea level)so floods don't worry me too much, but running water does. So my backhoe reference has become a necessary tool to add drains and ditches to my lot.

My tractor is a Ford 841. It is similar in size to an 8N with live hyds and more HP. The unit has a FEL with an undercarriage that I can attach the hoe to (will not be a 3 point).

One of the builds uses bolts and pipe as the main pivot, while the other uses drill rod and heavy wall tube in the pivot.

What I'm calling the main pivot is the swivel joint at the base of the boom, attaching it to the fixed frame.

My use is not commercial so I not inclined to use 1/2" wall DOM or drilled bar stock nor am I inclined to use pipe and Grade 8 bolts for the pin.

A number of people here have built hoes and put them to use. My question (finally)is what are you using and how has it performed for you? If you have dwgs or sketches I would appreciate seeing them.

Suggestions, comments, questions.

Old as Dirt
JLG
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#17097 - 06/23/16 05:57 AM Re: Backhoe Main Pivot Construction Question [Re: Old as Dirt]
bunkclimber Offline
MBN Old hand
Registered: 02/14/10
Posts: 1097
Loc: Maryland *****
whether your use is commercial or not doesnt matter,you'll use it more and more often as your way of thinking changes once the hoe is in your equipment arsenal.whatever you do use,keep in mind greasing it is key to its longevity.If you have to replace this part it will be a big job as everything on the hoe revolves around it.I'd be using at least a 1.5"pin made from 4140(good) or 4340(best) alloy steel,(1.5"gives good bearing surface)and the sleeve to be at least 1/2"wall thickness so you can sink a good root weld into it and have adequate strength for the loads imposed by a hoe when digging.Be sure to install grease zerks,and not just one.Keep all your pins 4140 or 4340 steel,hardened if possible.Your sleeves should be made from 'mechanical tubing' or thats what it was called told it was last I bought some.You occasionally can find 12"L++drops for sale on eBay in metals dept
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#17120 - 06/27/16 10:12 AM Re: Backhoe Main Pivot Construction Question [Re: bunkclimber]
Old as Dirt Offline
New in town
Registered: 05/15/16
Posts: 9
Loc: TX USA
Bunk, thanks for your input. I agree with your comments, especially on greasing wear points.

Can you share your experience on how to construct the boom pivot. Originally I had planned to attach the main pin to the boom and have the wear point be in the upper and lower fixed mounts. I'm inferring from your comment that I should fix the pin and allow the boom to rotate on the pin.

If you have dwgs I would appreciate seeing them (This assumes you can or wish to share them).

Again thanks for your comments.
Thanks
JLG
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#17121 - 06/27/16 10:27 AM Re: Backhoe Main Pivot Construction Question [Re: Old as Dirt]
f350ca Offline
MBN Enthusiast
Registered: 02/15/10
Posts: 531
Loc: Calabogie Ontario Canada *****
I agree with Bunks idea of fixing the pins. Another school of thought is to go with hardened steel bushings and softer pins (4140 annealed). With this arrangement the easier to replace pins can be changed as wear occurs and the bushings should still be usable.
_________________________
Free advice is usually worth exactly what you pay for it>
Greg
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#17124 - 06/27/16 04:19 PM Re: Backhoe Main Pivot Construction Question [Re: f350ca]
bunkclimber Offline
MBN Old hand
Registered: 02/14/10
Posts: 1097
Loc: Maryland *****
I have no plans for a hoe, only have regrets on how I built my loader with only pins and steel,no wear bushings that could be punched out and replaced easy..now I have to bore the frame sections and rebuild the whole articulation joint,not an easy task with lots of other things on my plate here..its not BAD but getting looser as I use it..Im sure I'll profile the job here on MBN with lots of delicious photos wink
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#17127 - 06/27/16 08:51 PM Re: Backhoe Main Pivot Construction Question [Re: bunkclimber]
Old as Dirt Offline
New in town
Registered: 05/15/16
Posts: 9
Loc: TX USA
f350 - Bunk
Appreciate your comments. I'll have to rethink my boom attachment/pivot assembly to utilize a taller pin and lower the forces the movable assembly sees.

I may be forced to endure tractor salesman BS so I can inspect some commercial hoes. Oh well small price to build and own your own hoe.

JLG
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#17129 - 06/28/16 01:58 AM Re: Backhoe Main Pivot Construction Question [Re: Old as Dirt]
GLyford Offline
MBN member
Registered: 02/09/10
Posts: 375
Loc: central MA
Longer is good.

The bigger diameter you can make the pin, too, the less the pressure on the sliding surfaces will be and the longer it will last.
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#17130 - 06/28/16 02:56 AM Re: Backhoe Main Pivot Construction Question [Re: GLyford]
bunkclimber Offline
MBN Old hand
Registered: 02/14/10
Posts: 1097
Loc: Maryland *****
I see a lot of iron castings being used,might be cast steel as well for the hoe lower pivot frame,a lot of rounded edges and curves designed into them to combat the stress and make for reliable parts..takes a lot less time to make one with casting than with plate fab
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#17143 - 06/29/16 09:03 AM Re: Backhoe Main Pivot Construction Question [Re: bunkclimber]
Old as Dirt Offline
New in town
Registered: 05/15/16
Posts: 9
Loc: TX USA
Ah! the advantages of old age! Forgot I had trolled the web looking for main pivot pictures. Found 2. One of a Kubota and one of Prairie Dog Digger (Hey, I just write'em like I find'em).

Both feature a double pin (upper-lower) and the hinge assembly is a weldment. Which is great, means the hinge can be constructed using commercial flat stock and hand tools I have. Plus minimal machining as my abilities are limited.

IF you're interested, the pictures are on the net. To view the pivot assembly of a Ford/NH 4500/775 go to Messick's they have the NH parts manual online that has line dwgs of the hinge. These are industrial level castings.

Thanks to all for their comments.
JLG
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#17146 - 06/29/16 11:06 AM Re: Backhoe Main Pivot Construction Question [Re: Old as Dirt]
bunkclimber Offline
MBN Old hand
Registered: 02/14/10
Posts: 1097
Loc: Maryland *****
remember the farther apart from the main axis of swing that you mount the swing cylinder,the more swing power you get.Also makes for more power to rip main swing trunnion apart with too LOL
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#17149 - 06/29/16 06:38 PM Re: Backhoe Main Pivot Construction Question [Re: bunkclimber]
Old as Dirt Offline
New in town
Registered: 05/15/16
Posts: 9
Loc: TX USA
The Prairie Dog hoe has the swing cylinders mounted under the drawbar side by side. Only one I've seen like that. Although the Prairie Dog is a commercial grade hoe fabbed up out of flat stock and structural I think for what was called CUTs. So space between the rear wheels is limited.

I was thinking of 30* for the swing cyls (or so).

I doubt if I'll rip them off, more likely just f up the boom or break the rear end casting on the Ford. Something that will elicit the comment "how in the hell did he do that"?

JLG
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#17177 - 07/04/16 09:56 AM Re: Backhoe Main Pivot Construction Question [Re: Old as Dirt]
nnaatz Offline
MBN member
Registered: 02/25/10
Posts: 316
Loc: dexter, mn
Here's our long 3 point hoe











_________________________
so many irons, so little fire
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#17181 - 07/04/16 06:19 PM Re: Backhoe Main Pivot Construction Question [Re: nnaatz]
Old as Dirt Offline
New in town
Registered: 05/15/16
Posts: 9
Loc: TX USA
Thank You for the excellent pictures. Good pictures will keep me out of the clutches of tractor salesmen.

My choice is to construct a bolt on unit as it moves the weight closer to the rear axle and I have a FEL with a sub frame that I can tie into. One of the comments that I've seen is that the 3P makes the front end light on the Ford 8N. My 841 is similar in size, but heavier. Unloading the front end is good thing as the Ford Ag tractor is designed for cultivating potatoes not digging. The Industrial units have a much beefier front axle assembly, better trans/clutch.

Again excellent photos and I will copy them to my file for reference, Thanks

JLG
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#17183 - 07/04/16 07:55 PM Re: Backhoe Main Pivot Construction Question [Re: Old as Dirt]
f350ca Offline
MBN Enthusiast
Registered: 02/15/10
Posts: 531
Loc: Calabogie Ontario Canada *****
Bolt on or a sub frame mount is a good idea. Nnaatz's tractor looks pretty beafy with a heavy 3pt hitch. Lighter tractors like my 30 horse Kubota don't have a heavy enough 3 pt hitch to take the forces a backhoe can exert.. I built mine with a sub frame that pins to brackets hung under the axle and extends up to the loader frame. When your digging the tractor is essentially sitting on the hoe adding weight but not carrying much load.
_________________________
Free advice is usually worth exactly what you pay for it>
Greg
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#17186 - 07/05/16 07:28 AM Re: Backhoe Main Pivot Construction Question [Re: f350ca]
nnaatz Offline
MBN member
Registered: 02/25/10
Posts: 316
Loc: dexter, mn
Definitely go with a sub frame this works ok Cuz it's on a 110 hp 12000lbs tractor the 3 point twist and rocks a it swings and pulls....we have put it on the 871 ford tractor and is considerably less stable an strains the top link rocker to much
_________________________
so many irons, so little fire
Top
#17187 - 07/05/16 07:31 AM Re: Backhoe Main Pivot Construction Question [Re: f350ca]
Old as Dirt Offline
New in town
Registered: 05/15/16
Posts: 9
Loc: TX USA
f350
Nnaatz's tractor is a tank! Way too big for my needs, but certainly suited to todays big farms. When I was a kid we thought 100 or 200 acres was a BIG farm.

I have read a number of complaints of broken, bent lift arms and broken rear trumpets on smaller tractors like the 8N.

If you like tractor porn, google "bfreaky". He detailed a backhoe build on a tractor similar in size to nnaatz's on Tractor by Net. It is the "Swinsuit" issue for backhoes.

There is also a Youtube of the finished hoe working. I don't recall any tags to use in a search.

JLG
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#17188 - 07/05/16 10:57 AM Re: Backhoe Main Pivot Construction Question [Re: Old as Dirt]
f350ca Offline
MBN Enthusiast
Registered: 02/15/10
Posts: 531
Loc: Calabogie Ontario Canada *****
Don't have a picture of the subframe but here is my hoe. There was a detailed build log on this site probably 15 years back but guess the old files evaporated.
Never did get painted.
_________________________
Free advice is usually worth exactly what you pay for it>
Greg
Top
#17189 - 07/06/16 07:06 AM Re: Backhoe Main Pivot Construction Question [Re: f350ca]
Old as Dirt Offline
New in town
Registered: 05/15/16
Posts: 9
Loc: TX USA
f350

Your description had me envisioning a ratty POS hoe. I'll be very happy if my turns out to be half as nice as yours.

Are all the cylinders the same size? It appears the boom mtd ones are larger. Are you running it off the tractor hyd system or a PTO pump?

I'll have to add a front pump on mine to get enough flow as the integral pump has limited volume although the trans/diff is the hyd oil sump on the Ford.

Nice Build. Spray it with Ospho, it will turn it black and stop the rust.

JLG
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#17190 - 07/06/16 10:26 AM Re: Backhoe Main Pivot Construction Question [Re: Old as Dirt]
f350ca Offline
MBN Enthusiast
Registered: 02/15/10
Posts: 531
Loc: Calabogie Ontario Canada *****
Thanks, they're all 3 inch bore but different strokes to give the desired movements.
Lots of power, I have a hard time holding the tractor in place when trenching, the hoe will drag it along with the stabilizers down.
I have a 5 gallon per minute gear pump running off the front of the engine. It gets used for this, the splitter, the power feed on the wood chipper, etc
Rust is a colour too, Its all 1/4 inch plate a tube so it should outlast me, even without paint.
_________________________
Free advice is usually worth exactly what you pay for it>
Greg
Top


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