Machine Builders Network

Video Update
Slide Show
Who's Online
0 registered (), 5 Guests and 0 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
930dreamer, b4autodark, Dwayne Oxford, Jimyd, Tigerfab
2347 Registered Users
Forum Stats
2347 Members
21 Forums
1000 Topics
17380 Posts

Max Online: 64 @ 09/04/14 12:00 AM
(Views)Popular Topics
Articulating Tractor/FEL - From Scratch 1661812
THE BEAST (tracked personal vehicle) 739329
trailer tounge help 576273
Tracked Backhoe 364146
Look what followed me home!!!! 320838
Shop modifications 312302
Hendey Lathe rebuild 307167
what odd jobs did you do today? 279980
andre's tractor build 240060
backhoe plans 229116
November
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1 2 3 4 5
6 7 8 9 10 11 12
13 14 15 16 17 18 19
20 21 22 23 24 25 26
27 28 29 30
Bug Reports
Top Posters
tom 1601
Doc 1156
Lu47Dan 1108
bunkclimber 1087
mdlawnguy 860
Business Links
Home
Enco Site Site
Ebay Site
McMaster Site
Grizzly Site
Surplus Center Site
The Farm Show
Metal Supermarket Site
Friends of MBN
tractorbynet.com Site
Miller Welding Projects Site
Page 4 of 4 < 1 2 3 4
Topic Options
Rate This Topic
Hop to:
#17953 - 08/08/17 11:25 PM Re: Ready for Paint [Re: Lincoln]
GLyford Offline
MBN member
Registered: 02/09/10
Posts: 386
Loc: central MA
Being able to run the motor slower is definitely an advantage, and I think you will be a lot happier with direct drive.

There's a lot of little tweaks that go into getting your own machines running, but that's part,of what makes it fun.
Top
#17954 - 08/12/17 05:20 AM Re: Ready for Paint [Re: Lincoln]
Zack Offline
MBN member
Registered: 09/20/10
Posts: 61
Loc: VA
After switching to a fixed pulley the motor didn't want to start back up with the added load...so I had to educate myself on tuning propane engines a bit but got it running again. Solid operation except belt still slips when trying to build pressure above 750psi. Local tsc doesn't have the sprockets I need so I ordered some 60 pitch sprockets from surplus center and will need to wait. I think with the chain drive I should be able to build enough pressure to move the tracks, but it seems moving this little monster is tougher than I expected. Maybe next weekend...the story of my Summer.
Top
#17955 - 08/12/17 05:23 AM Almost drivable... [Re: Zack]
Zack Offline
MBN member
Registered: 09/20/10
Posts: 61
Loc: VA
It's raining and my parts are on order, so I finally broke this lazy streak and uploaded some photos to flickr...here's a link. They should be publicly viewable. I have a ton more so if there something anyone wants to see, let me know and I'll add it to the album: https://flic.kr/s/aHsm2qnjL7


Edited by Zack (08/12/17 08:28 AM)
Top
#17956 - 08/13/17 09:08 AM Re: Almost drivable... [Re: Zack]
Lincoln Offline
MBN Enthusiast
Registered: 03/25/11
Posts: 631
Loc: Parry Sound Ontario Canada *****
It looks real good Zack! cool
I didn't realize you were trying to run the pumps with one belt, I'd say it's too much load for just one V. A double power band type belt would possibly be enough.
I don't mean to sound negative, but you may not be too happy with the chain drive, I'm pretty sure it'll be prone to stretching and be noisy.
Sure looks good, real eager to see it go!
_________________________
If you can't weld well.....weld lots...
Top
#17958 - 08/13/17 02:38 PM Re: Almost drivable... [Re: Lincoln]
Zack Offline
MBN member
Registered: 09/20/10
Posts: 61
Loc: VA
Thanks, the chain drive is a pretty cheap fix since I already have plenty of chain, just had to order the sprockets. I thought about the double v belt too, but wasn't sure if it would work and just want something to get enough slip-free power to the pump to test it out. I also came up with a mount for my BBQ propane tank (yup still haven't gotten a real equipment tank for it yet) that will hang the tank on the back left/port side of the machine above the door right by the pressure regulator. I think it should work well and will only require 4 new holes in the machine smile. I'll take some pictures when it get it mounted next weekend. Also, any ideas on quieting down this little Kohler 2cyl? Does anyone make aftermarket really quiet mufflers?
Top
#17969 - 08/27/17 02:09 PM Maiden Voyage [Re: Zack]
Zack Offline
MBN member
Registered: 09/20/10
Posts: 61
Loc: VA
The little machine took its maiden voyage today...about 20 feet out of the garage and back in. It worked...but not great...yet. I heard some type of click once in a while when rolling and it took some serious pressure to rotate the tracks. I wonder if I bled my brakes a little too well and have a slight pressure on the brake discs restricting the drive shafts a bit. I'll look into that soon and probably just pull the brakes off all together since it stops on its own when I let off the track valves and I'll have a bucket or implement to put down as a parking brake. The engine made good contact with the pump via its new chain drive and I can't really hear the chain over the engine so I think it will work out just fine. The engine does seem pretty strained with both tracks engaged, so I might be right at the limits. I'll keep tinkering any give another update as I get it working better.
Top
#17974 - 09/04/17 05:22 PM Re: Maiden Voyage [Re: Zack]
Zack Offline
MBN member
Registered: 09/20/10
Posts: 61
Loc: VA
I fixed the click...it was loose drive chain on the right track reduction gear. I managed to remove a link and replace it with a half link and no more noise. The machine drives, but my motor can't continuously operate the pumps at high pressure so I'll need to replace the engine with a larger one.
Top
#17975 - 09/06/17 03:31 AM Re: Maiden Voyage [Re: Zack]
Lincoln Offline
MBN Enthusiast
Registered: 03/25/11
Posts: 631
Loc: Parry Sound Ontario Canada *****
One step at a time I guess
Still sounds like progress to me
_________________________
If you can't weld well.....weld lots...
Top
#17979 - 09/07/17 09:54 AM Re: Maiden Voyage [Re: Lincoln]
Mandres Offline
New in town
Registered: 04/15/16
Posts: 6
Loc: Anahuac, TX
I'm surprised your 18hp engine is struggling that much. There are several commercial skid steers with less power that that, although I can't think of one with tracks. There should be plenty of juice to operate with no real load applied right?

Are you sure nothing's binding in the drive train? Or maybe a valve is stuck or hooked up incorrectly?
Top
#17980 - 09/09/17 01:02 AM Re: Maiden Voyage [Re: Mandres]
GLyford Offline
MBN member
Registered: 02/09/10
Posts: 386
Loc: central MA
Its pretty easy to get pumps and motors that don't match well for the available power, especially if you are trying to scrounge a budget build.
Top
#17985 - 09/11/17 05:14 AM Re: Maiden Voyage [Re: GLyford]
Rob65 Offline
New in town
Registered: 02/15/10
Posts: 10
Loc: UK
Zack,

I have a 1.5ton mini digger with a 20hp engine and that tracks around quite happily on little more than tick over. I also have a Bobcat 463 with about a 20hp engine and that is quite happy picking up capacity loads on little more than tick over. I appreciate that these are diesel engines and have different torque characteristics to a petrol(Gas)engine. I can't help but think that something in your hydraulic system is wrong and would be worth looking at more closely before you go laying out $$$ on a bigger engine. What relief valves do you have in the system?

Good Luck and keep up the great work.

Rob
Top
#17987 - 09/12/17 12:33 AM Re: Maiden Voyage [Re: Rob65]
GLyford Offline
MBN member
Registered: 02/09/10
Posts: 386
Loc: central MA
I am wondering if the pumps are way too big. For example, a lot of the ones on Surplus Center are rated at 1800 rpm, but can be run up to 3600...where they have double the volume and need twice the power to run. And most engines are rated at 3600 rpm.

Also, Surplus Center has a tech page where you can check how many engine horsepower you need vs. how much electric motor you need. Most engines are rated with no parasitic load like flywheel cooling fans, etc., it is really not all usable horsepower, so you have to derate. I don't remember if it is by 1/3 or 1/2 or what compared to,an electric (which is the equivalent horsepower most hydraulic pumps are rated in).

So if you are just comparing numbers to numbers you could be behind the 8 ball twice...?

Please tell me to shove off if you already know all this.


Edited by GLyford (09/12/17 12:35 AM)
Top
#17992 - 09/13/17 02:29 PM Re: Maiden Voyage [Re: GLyford]
Zack Offline
MBN member
Registered: 09/20/10
Posts: 61
Loc: VA
Thanks for all the input guys. I have used the calculators on surplus center and at 1500psi it indicates 25.9hp and at 2000psi 34.7hp. My pump is a tandem 13.33gpm pump for a total flow of 26.67gpm at the rated max of 1800rpm. I have it set up on a 2:1 chain drive gear reduction to cut the engine speed in half and roughly double the torque (minus efficiency losses of the chain drive). That is why I originally felt my 18hp motor might cut it, when I jack the machine up in the air the tracks will operate full speed at about 400psi on the pumps. No binding in the undercarriage that I can find. There are main pressure reliefs right after the pumps set at 2500psi and those are Prince RV-2H units. The control valves have integral reliefs set at 1500psi right now. The engine is an older Kohler MV18s that was converted over to propane. I'm not sure if power is typically derated for propane conversions, but between drive losses, and possible derating of the engine, I could see it dropping below the equivalent 25.9hp needed to run the pump. I can drive the machine around, it just bogs down the engine when the pressure reaches close to 1500psi. Also, based on the motor specs, I'd like to bump up the track drive motors to 2000psi which increases the torque demand even more. I'd love to find something to fix and use my current engine, but I think I just built a machine too big for the motor. The track drive motors are Prince ADM-200 motors which need most of the pump flow the run at the speed I want to use them, and need 1500-2000psi for the torque output I was intending to have. With a 1650psi differential pressure across those motors they output about 150ft-lb each if I remember correctly. Any ideas?


Edited by Zack (09/13/17 02:33 PM)
Top
#17994 - 09/14/17 02:20 AM Re: Maiden Voyage [Re: Zack]
GLyford Offline
MBN member
Registered: 02/09/10
Posts: 386
Loc: central MA
I think going with a larger engine will be the easiest way to address your issues, since it is both the simplest way, and engines usually end up cheaper than hydraulics.

Have you considered going water cooled? Would you have room for a smaller import car engine, 1:1 to your pumps?
Top
#17995 - 09/14/17 04:53 AM Re: Maiden Voyage [Re: GLyford]
Rob65 Offline
New in town
Registered: 02/15/10
Posts: 10
Loc: UK
Zack,

I have not done any calculations on this but 26 g/min sounds like a lot of oil flow for a small skid loader.

How much flow do you actually need to run your drive motors at the required speed? Might you be able to use a 1/3rd or even 1/4 speed reduction ratio on your chain drive between engine and pumps?

Do you have any idea roughly what weight your machine is?

If you go with the small car engine as GLyford suggests it would probably produce a lot less noise than the old Kohler and make the machine more pleasant to run. Would also annoy the neighbours less if that is a consideration.

Rob
Top
#17997 - 09/16/17 08:19 AM Re: Maiden Voyage [Re: Rob65]
Zack Offline
MBN member
Registered: 09/20/10
Posts: 61
Loc: VA
I did some calculations this morning. The pump is a big one, but the motors are pretty demanding ones too. I'm using Prince ADM200 motors that will produce the following:
6gpm / 1.5mph machine max speed / 190 lb-ft peak motor torque
8gpm / 1.9mph machine max speed / 189 lb-ft peak motor torque
10gpm / 2.2mph machine max speed / 186 lb-ft peak motor torque

Note, that is per track and the motors are geared 2:1 so I can double speed by switching to 1:1 or leave my gearing at 2:1 and keep the torque to the track drive gear at roughly 370 lb-ft per side.

Now, the pump(s): Parker ULTRA series 2PL0902PL090 (tandem 1.76in^3 displacement pumps). I was able to get the full spec sheets from Parker (and the drawings) since the pump is considered obsolete. Here is what the input/output table looks like:
6gpm / 1000rpm / 14kW = 98lb-ft input torque at 2000psi output
8gpm / 1400rpm / 20kW = 100.5lb-ft
10gpm / 1600rpm / 23kW = 101.1lb-ft
13gpm / 2000rpm / 30kW = 105.5lb-ft (Full flow on both pumps at 2000 psi)
The pump is stamped with 1800rpm max, but the spec sheets clearly indicate it can go way faster and more flow. I don't intend to use any more that that.

Now, since I don't intend to run the engine at a full 3600rpm all the time and I have priority flow dividers on each pump circuit sending the priority flow the the motor spools, I have only the leftover from one divider going to the loader valve. The other side goes to the accessory valve. I currently have the valves set at 10gpm (based on output speed and differential pressure per the ADM200 performance specs), but I plan to adjust this down to about 8gpm or even 6gpm. That way at lower engine speeds I still have some flow left to run the boom and accessories. With 6gpm to the motors I can run as low as 2800rpm on the engine ans still have 2gpm left over on each side...similarly at 8gpm to the motors I get 2gpm left over at 3200rpm engine speed.

Last topic, based on the above calculations and taking into account inefficiencies of the chain drive (typically 98%) if I want to be able to run this little monster full bore I will need 105.5 lb-ft into the pump so 53.8lb-ft output from the motor. Looks like I can use one of these motors:
Kohler CV940 / 53.6lb-ft
Kohler CV980 / 54.6lb-ft
Kohler CV1000 / 56.3lb-ft
Kawasaki FX921 / 54.3lb-ft
Kawasaki FX1000 / 56lb-ft
Kawasaki FX921DFI / 56.4lb-ft
I like the idea of a small car engine, but need something with a vertical output shaft unless I totally reconfigure the pump hydraulic connections and would then need a gearbox or something to turn the shaft. Still looking for the Vanguard specs, but generally I'm looking at 35-40hp engines.

Of course they are bigger and won't clear the rear engine cover so I think I'll probably get a new motor into the machine with the back door removed, then build a U-shaped shim from 3/8" plate with the hinge barrels set up to clip into the existing ones and produce new ones for the door to hang on. The saga continues...
Top
Page 4 of 4 < 1 2 3 4


Time
Donor Recognition 2010
Recent Posts
Mill Drill repair
by Lincoln
09:17 AM
m715 rebuild
by tom
07:09 PM
I couldn't pass it up
by GLyford
11/24/16 11:44 AM
THE BEAST (tracked personal vehicle)
by jeapadrenaline
11/22/16 09:47 PM
smiple centrifuge
by tom
11/21/16 11:38 PM
Kubota B7200
by terry
11/20/16 07:11 PM
Chargeur+ Kits & Product
by GLyford
11/16/16 03:54 PM
The "S" word...
by tom
11/16/16 12:32 PM
Still alive!!!
by sonny
11/13/16 06:17 PM
Truck repair
by mdlawnguy
11/12/16 02:35 PM
Search

Advertisers
Shout Box

File Locker
Donate to MBN
Today's Birthdays
No Birthdays

Machine Builders Network