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#615 - 05/22/10 07:51 PM andre's tractor build
andre Offline
MBN member
Registered: 02/14/10
Posts: 161
Loc: nowra nsw australia
well i got my tractor fired up today (with a new engine a 13 hp Honda) for the fist time and i found that i have some hydraulic issues the first was it didnt work the oil foamed and came out of the hoses i was trying to bleed the lines then my filter seal blew out what might have caused these problems?
the filter is not an actually hydraulic filter but a lube filter from a truck could this have any affect on the seal it seames to have to much pressure inside the filer.


Edited by andre (07/14/10 06:21 PM)
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thanks Andre
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#616 - 05/22/10 08:01 PM Re: hydraulic help [Re: andre]
bunkclimber Offline
MBN Old hand
Registered: 02/14/10
Posts: 1097
Loc: Maryland *****
andre I think you have your suction and pressure hoses backwards on your pump?..the filter or filter base you are using probably has a built in check valve(anti-drainback)to keep oil in the filter and not draining back..if you plumbed it backwards,the valve will close in the filter and possibly cause it to rupture..do be sure that the pump you are using is rated at the rpm of your engine,overspeeding a pump can lead to foaming and cavitation as well
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#617 - 05/22/10 08:15 PM Re: hydraulic help [Re: bunkclimber]
andre Offline
MBN member
Registered: 02/14/10
Posts: 161
Loc: nowra nsw australia
i have plumbed the filter right oil in were the arrow says in but would there be pressure in it as the oil is flowing through the valves into the filter at pressure.
the pump is plumbed the way i got it the big port to tank smaller port to valves and there are no marking specifiing which side to use.
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thanks Andre
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#618 - 05/23/10 03:44 AM Re: hydraulic help [Re: andre]
kcshawman Offline
MBN member
Registered: 02/12/10
Posts: 265
Loc: Kansas, Olathe
We need a picture. Maybe pump is turning in the wrong direction.
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I feel more like I do now then I did a while ago.
Clint
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#620 - 05/23/10 04:17 AM Re: hydraulic help [Re: kcshawman]
admin Offline

MBN member
Registered: 02/08/10
Posts: 131
Loc: Port Orchard, WA *****
I agree with Clint, sound like the pump is turning the wrong way. if there is a modle number on the pump that would help too.
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Thank you,
Matt Kramer
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#621 - 05/23/10 04:47 PM Re: hydraulic help [Re: admin]
f350ca Offline
MBN Enthusiast
Registered: 02/15/10
Posts: 531
Loc: Calabogie Ontario Canada *****
Not sure an automotive oil filter will work, hydraulic oil is generally much higher viscosity than engine lube oil. Had to replace one on a home made wood splitter a while ago that had supposably worked for years then started splitting the filter casing. Put on a proper hydraulic filter and no more problems.

Greg
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Free advice is usually worth exactly what you pay for it>
Greg
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#623 - 05/23/10 09:33 PM Re: hydraulic help [Re: f350ca]
cjmac Offline
MBN Enthusiast
Registered: 05/08/10
Posts: 557
Loc: Canada *****
Another possibility

The first time you start newly assembled hydraulics, any air in the hoses, cylinders, filter etc is forced into the tank. This can then be sucked into the pump intake and case a lot of foaming. This also expands the volume and can overflow the tank. Also it is a compressible fluid at this point and will behave quite differently. Try taking off the outlet hose on the pump and turn the pump by hand to confirm that there is oil going in the right direction. Also, as others have said, get a proper hydraulic filter. A car engine has a much smaller oil pump and lower flow. Finally, try to get as much air out as you can. IE fill the oil filter with oil before you install it (if it is vertical). Run the pump for less than a minute and then wait 2-3 minutes for the air to rise to the top of the tank. You may here air bubbling into the tank as the pump runs. The idea is to not suck air back into the pump. Once all the air is out with the valves in neutral, repeat the process with the cylinders, move them a bit and stop the pump to let the air rise in the tank. It goes faster if the oil is warm.

Good luck with it.

Chris
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#624 - 05/24/10 12:27 AM Re: hydraulic help [Re: cjmac]
andre Offline
MBN member
Registered: 02/14/10
Posts: 161
Loc: nowra nsw australia
thanks guys that information helped alot does it matter that all the all has air bubbles in it will the air separate from the oil thanks again i will get a new filter and try to get to it going next weekend also i have a couple of pics i will post latter today
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thanks Andre
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#625 - 05/24/10 07:49 AM Re: hydraulic help [Re: andre]
Lu47Dan Offline
MBN Old hand
Registered: 02/14/10
Posts: 1108
Loc: N/W Pa. ****
Andre, the air will come out overtime, but if the oil is severely aerated you can damage the pump running it like that.
It is best to change the oil if it is really aerated, a friend's logsplitter would work great when cold, but would start to get sponge after he ran it for a few hours. After a couple of years of use he was complaining that the splitter ram was stalling quite often. I plumbed in a tee and got pressure readings a full rpm and in high and low gpm. According to Barnes the pump was worn out.confused
After buying a new pump and installing a filter on the return line. I decided to change the suction strainer also since the hydraulic tank had been drained,The strainer was clean and while investigating how the tank was built I discover that the return line was not under the operating level of the tank. The oil being returned to the tank was being aerated. I ground the welds off the top of the tank and added a drop tube to the tank and his problem went away.
There was a grayish coating on the bottom of the tank that had to be from the wear to the pump.
Dan.
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Tools are to Men as Shoes are to Women, you can never have too many!
Used diesel engines are an adventure anyway you look at them!
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#628 - 05/24/10 12:11 PM Re: hydraulic help [Re: Lu47Dan]
terry Offline
MBN Enthusiast
Registered: 02/14/10
Posts: 637
Loc: Landrum,SC ****
My friend had me look into his log splitter that he had bought at Northern on their scrap pile. To make a long story short, whoever made the tank welded the fitting to it but there was no hole. grin grin
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#645 - 05/30/10 03:37 AM Re: hydraulic help [Re: terry]
andre Offline
MBN member
Registered: 02/14/10
Posts: 161
Loc: nowra nsw australia
well no luck this weekend either the 11 hp honda doesnt have enough torque on start up to turn over the pump so i need a bigger engine and a smaller pump i am going to replace the 25 gpm pump with an 8 or 10 gallon pump what size engine do you think i would need thanks for the help Andre
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thanks Andre
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#646 - 05/30/10 04:50 AM Re: hydraulic help [Re: andre]
bunkclimber Offline
MBN Old hand
Registered: 02/14/10
Posts: 1097
Loc: Maryland *****
andre,unless you have a MONSTEROUS open circuit pump,the 11hp Honda should turn it over without a hydraulic load applied.I think we asked before,but do you have the correct rotation for the pump?-Try to turn the pump shaft to make sure it's not binding.Does pressure build during the start period and stall the engine? relieve the pressure(use a temporary hose if you have to)back to the tank..the engine should turn the pump no problem with no pressure applied to the pump.My only real guess is maybe you have a closed-circuit pump that builds pressure up to the relief valve setting and is stalling your engine.
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#648 - 05/30/10 05:20 AM Re: hydraulic help [Re: bunkclimber]
andre Offline
MBN member
Registered: 02/14/10
Posts: 161
Loc: nowra nsw australia
well the first thing i did was check the pump rotation it was turning the right way what happens when i start the motor it will start but wont rev and then just dies the engine runs beutifully without load but just wont revv on start up and dies i donrt understand why as i can turn the pump and by hand without any problems don't know whats wrong any way thanks for the help Andre
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thanks Andre
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#649 - 05/30/10 05:20 AM Re: hydraulic help [Re: bunkclimber]
andre Offline
MBN member
Registered: 02/14/10
Posts: 161
Loc: nowra nsw australia
well the first thing i did was check the pump rotation it was turning the right way what happens when i start the motor it will start but wont rev and then just dies the engine runs beutifully without load but just wont revv on start up and dies i dont understand why as i can turn the pump and by hand without any problems don't know whats wrong any way thanks for the help Andre
_________________________
thanks Andre
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#652 - 05/30/10 10:03 AM Re: hydraulic help [Re: andre]
cjmac Offline
MBN Enthusiast
Registered: 05/08/10
Posts: 557
Loc: Canada *****
Hi Andre,

To run a 25 gpm pump takes more than 11 hp. The most you will get a 600 psi before the engine runs out of power and in your case you are not getting up to full rpm so you don't even have 11 hp. Maybe half that so it will stall at 300 psi. If you are trying to get 25 gpm through 3/4" hose you may well get 300 psi of pressure drop and that's why it all stops. There will be no pressure drop when you turn it by hand as the flow is negligible. Remember the gpm rating on the pump is often based on 1200 rpm so if you were direct driving it with a 3600 rpm engine then you are trying to make 75 gpm. If you can't drastically slow down the pump with belt ratios you will have to find a smaller displacement pump.

Keep up the good work.

Chris
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#660 - 05/30/10 11:49 PM Re: hydraulic help [Re: cjmac]
andre Offline
MBN member
Registered: 02/14/10
Posts: 161
Loc: nowra nsw australia
well that makes sense as when i tried once to get it going the grub screws slipped on the pump and it was turning at about 100 rpm and it worked really well another thing that i am only realizing now is the valves i am using will not be rated to that much flow so the back pressure on the pump might be enough to kill the engine thanks Andre
_________________________
thanks Andre
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#661 - 05/31/10 03:25 AM Re: hydraulic help [Re: andre]
bunkclimber Offline
MBN Old hand
Registered: 02/14/10
Posts: 1097
Loc: Maryland *****
Originally Posted By: andre
valves i am using will not be rated to that much flow so the back pressure on the pump might be enough to kill the engine

andre I knew you had a flow restriction/pressure problem..most any pump can be turned by a small engine,it's just when the pump flow comes under pressure is HP required to maintain that flow.What are you building with the pump?You'll find that a 2-stage pump can get you farther with the limited HP that you have..even so the 11hp you have can do a lot of work for you if you set it up right
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#683 - 06/03/10 05:19 AM Re: hydraulic help [Re: bunkclimber]
andre Offline
MBN member
Registered: 02/14/10
Posts: 161
Loc: nowra nsw australia
well i have decided that the new power plant will be diesel i have to ask how much power will be required for my application i am looking at a new Chinese 10 hp diesel but not sure weather it will provide enough power for what i want thanks for the help Andre
_________________________
thanks Andre
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#691 - 06/04/10 03:56 PM Re: hydraulic help [Re: andre]
bunkclimber Offline
MBN Old hand
Registered: 02/14/10
Posts: 1097
Loc: Maryland *****
hey andre if you run a hyd pump with any engine,keep in mind that you lose HP to hydraulic inefficency,heat,friction,etc..so if hypothetically if your engine(gas OR diesel)has 10/11hp then you really only get about 8 usable HP from the system..make it as efficent as you can.-With 10hp you're topped out around 5gpm at 2000psi or so..better to give the engine some hp reserve and size the pump GPM even smaller yet.
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#692 - 06/05/10 01:29 AM Re: hydraulic help [Re: bunkclimber]
andre Offline
MBN member
Registered: 02/14/10
Posts: 161
Loc: nowra nsw australia
thanks for all your advice bunkclimber what pump are you running on your machine and at what pressures i am thinking of using an 8 gpm pump at 2500 psi driven by a 16 hp diesel i am wondering if 8 gpm will be sufficient to run 4 cylinders and two drive motors thanks for the help Andre
_________________________
thanks Andre
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