Machine Builders Network

Video Update
Slide Show
Who's Online
0 registered (), 5 Guests and 0 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
930dreamer, b4autodark, Dwayne Oxford, Jimyd, Tigerfab
2347 Registered Users
Forum Stats
2347 Members
21 Forums
1000 Topics
17380 Posts

Max Online: 64 @ 09/04/14 12:00 AM
(Views)Popular Topics
Articulating Tractor/FEL - From Scratch 1661812
THE BEAST (tracked personal vehicle) 739329
trailer tounge help 576273
Tracked Backhoe 364146
Look what followed me home!!!! 320838
Shop modifications 312302
Hendey Lathe rebuild 307167
what odd jobs did you do today? 279980
andre's tractor build 240060
backhoe plans 229116
November
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1 2 3 4 5
6 7 8 9 10 11 12
13 14 15 16 17 18 19
20 21 22 23 24 25 26
27 28 29 30
Bug Reports
Top Posters
tom 1601
Doc 1156
Lu47Dan 1108
bunkclimber 1087
mdlawnguy 860
Business Links
Home
Enco Site Site
Ebay Site
McMaster Site
Grizzly Site
Surplus Center Site
The Farm Show
Metal Supermarket Site
Friends of MBN
tractorbynet.com Site
Miller Welding Projects Site
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >
Topic Options
Rate This Topic
Hop to:
#7828 - 04/01/12 04:39 PM Wheel/tire selection for cylinder cart upgrade
Locobreath Offline
New in town
Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 10
Loc: Lexington, KY
Since I finally got the ownership papers from my late father's welding O/A cylinders, I can now get them refilled and start using them again. That prompted me to take a good look at the tank cart that Dad made out of scrap.

One area that I want to rework is the geometry of the wheels as they relate to the load platform. I think Dad put the axle too close to the back of the structure. This cause the platform to barely get off the ground unless you push the handlebars to a really low position. I think he was also afraid of backward tipping, because he added a heavy metal bar for ballast on the front of the platform.

In addition, it has 40+ year old mismatched wheelbarrow pneumatic tires (16" overall diameter)with worn-out friction bearings.

I'm going to move the axle back, pretty much to copy the geometry of a commercial hand truck.

My question is - what would you recommend as a wheel/tire assembly? On the low end, a fairly large lawn mower style non-pneumatic and on the high end, wheelbarrow-style pneumatics. Either way, I'm thinking something with integral ball bearings.

It is unlikely that I would need to wheel the cart on anything but a shop floor or a paved driveway. Further, the tanks are on the large size (220 cf oxygen) and are fairly heavy.

I would appreciate any suggestions - thanks!

--> Bill in Kentucky
Top
#7829 - 04/01/12 06:26 PM Re: Wheel/tire selection for cylinder cart upgrade [Re: Locobreath]
Lu47Dan Online   content
MBN Old hand
Registered: 02/14/10
Posts: 1111
Loc: N/W Pa. ****
Originally Posted By: Locobreath
Since I finally got the ownership papers from my late father's welding O/A cylinders, I can now get them refilled and start using them again. That prompted me to take a good look at the tank cart that Dad made out of scrap.

One area that I want to rework is the geometry of the wheels as they relate to the load platform. I think Dad put the axle too close to the back of the structure. This cause the platform to barely get off the ground unless you push the handlebars to a really low position. I think he was also afraid of backward tipping, because he added a heavy metal bar for ballast on the front of the platform.

In addition, it has 40+ year old mismatched wheelbarrow pneumatic tires (16" overall diameter)with worn-out friction bearings.

I'm going to move the axle back, pretty much to copy the geometry of a commercial hand truck.

My question is - what would you recommend as a wheel/tire assembly? On the low end, a fairly large lawn mower style non-pneumatic and on the high end, wheelbarrow-style pneumatics. Either way, I'm thinking something with integral ball bearings.

It is unlikely that I would need to wheel the cart on anything but a shop floor or a paved driveway. Further, the tanks are on the large size (220 cf oxygen) and are fairly heavy.

I would appreciate any suggestions - thanks!

--> Bill in Kentucky

Bill, Welcome back
First thing to do is scrap the wheelbarrow tire idea and get a couple of rear hubs and wheels from a front wheel drive car and do this......
Page one.
Page two.
Page three.
I used two space saver spares for my cart.
Dan.
_________________________
Tools are to Men as Shoes are to Women, you can never have too many!
Used diesel engines are an adventure anyway you look at them!
Top
#7830 - 04/01/12 06:31 PM Re: Wheel/tire selection for cylinder cart upgrade [Re: Locobreath]
mdlawnguy Offline
MBN Enthusiast
Registered: 03/07/10
Posts: 878
Loc: maryland *****
check out the flat free tires at your local tractor supply (shop). i went to them and have had no problems .they don't fall off the rim or go flat etc.. they have bearings etc... on 3/4 shaft.. about 30 each
Top
#7857 - 04/06/12 05:43 AM Re: Wheel/tire selection for cylinder cart upgrade [Re: mdlawnguy]
kcshawman Offline
MBN member
Registered: 02/12/10
Posts: 265
Loc: Kansas, Olathe
One more wheel, hydraulic motor, small engine, hydro-gear pump and you have a self-propelled... LOL; well maybe not.
_________________________
I feel more like I do now then I did a while ago.
Clint
Top
#7858 - 04/06/12 04:39 PM Re: Wheel/tire selection for cylinder cart upgrade [Re: kcshawman]
Locobreath Offline
New in town
Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 10
Loc: Lexington, KY
Guys, thanks for the ideas. I haven't decided yet, but both options are worth exploring.

I did a quick pricing of rear hubs and compact spares at the local u-pull junkyard - about $85 total. I'm going to check with another place to see if I can do any better.

One concern is overall wldth. I measured the HF cart (like Dan's) today and it is about 22" wide at the frame (excluding wheel assemblies). Mine is about 24" at the frame. I'd like to make it narrow enough to go through a 32" door but that may not be practical. And it may not even be worth shooting for.
Top
#7860 - 04/06/12 09:09 PM Re: Wheel/tire selection for cylinder cart upgrade [Re: Locobreath]
kcshawman Offline
MBN member
Registered: 02/12/10
Posts: 265
Loc: Kansas, Olathe
https://www.surpluscenter.com/sort.asp?catname=wheels&keyword=TTSH

trailer stuff maybe


If you have a lathe you could make the axle out of a 1" shaft or maybe a 1" die to cut threads. It may be easier just to spend the 24 dollars for two axles.


Edited by Clint (04/06/12 09:14 PM)
Edit Reason: extra content
_________________________
I feel more like I do now then I did a while ago.
Clint
Top
#7863 - 04/07/12 06:06 AM Re: Wheel/tire selection for cylinder cart upgrade [Re: Locobreath]
Lu47Dan Online   content
MBN Old hand
Registered: 02/14/10
Posts: 1111
Loc: N/W Pa. ****
Originally Posted By: Locobreath
Guys, thanks for the ideas. I haven't decided yet, but both options are worth exploring.

I did a quick pricing of rear hubs and compact spares at the local u-pull junkyard - about $85 total. I'm going to check with another place to see if I can do any better.

One concern is overall wldth. I measured the HF cart (like Dan's) today and it is about 22" wide at the frame (excluding wheel assemblies). Mine is about 24" at the frame. I'd like to make it narrow enough to go through a 32" door but that may not be practical. And it may not even be worth shooting for.

I got my hubs and wheels for free, I used to fix cars for two friends who had the same cars. When they got too bad to fix anymore I was given the car for my labor. I bought a rusted out car for parts for a friend last fall pulled the engine and transmission for the friend and scrapped the rest, I forgot to pull the rear hubs and a set of wheels before scrapping it. confused All I wanted was it out of here as it was going to be another horrible winter shocked according to the weather man. laugh If you get the hubs and wheels from a junk yard make sure to get the bolts with it. The hubs I used were bolted on from the rear, so I did not have to drill and tap holes to match the bolt pattern.
If you want it to go through a 32" door than build the cart to hold the cylinders inline with each other. Just make sure you can change one cylinder from the front and one from the rear of the cart. I have seen a few built that way.
Good luck.
Dan.
_________________________
Tools are to Men as Shoes are to Women, you can never have too many!
Used diesel engines are an adventure anyway you look at them!
Top
#7879 - 04/10/12 01:34 PM Re: Wheel/tire selection for cylinder cart upgrade [Re: Lu47Dan]
Locobreath Offline
New in town
Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 10
Loc: Lexington, KY
Here are a few pictures of Dad's cart that I'm redoing:





Top
#8438 - 05/28/12 12:13 PM Re: Wheel/tire selection for cylinder cart upgrade [Re: Locobreath]
ironwings Offline
New in town
Registered: 04/13/12
Posts: 1
Loc: Pacific N. West
Fat bicycle tires work well too or motorcycle front tires and Hubs. They both have bearings and are light and easy to work with. They also float over rocks etc. and curbs.
Top
#8442 - 05/30/12 03:04 PM Re: Wheel/tire selection for cylinder cart upgrade [Re: ironwings]
Andrew Offline
MBN member
Registered: 05/18/10
Posts: 122
Loc: Merrickville, Ontario
Dan, looks good. Add another project to my list :-).

cheers, Andrew
Top
#9557 - 11/16/12 01:56 PM Re: Wheel/tire selection for cylinder cart upgrade [Re: Andrew]
Locobreath Offline
New in town
Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 10
Loc: Lexington, KY
Dan, you convinced me to go with the space saver tires.

Clint, thanks for the Surplus Center link.

I was trying to figure out how to get some used bearing/hub assemblies cheap, and I looked at a lot of possibilities.

In the interest of making a decision and getting things off dead center, I finally decided to order the low-speed hubs and spindles from Clint's link. They arrived yesterday, and tomorrow I'm planning on hitting the U-Pull junkyard for some suitable wheels and some lug nuts.

I"m thinking I can weld these spindles directly to an angle steel crossmember. Of course, I have to have the wheels in hand before I can determine widths, and height of the spindle centerlines.

Dan, did you put any pre-loading on your tires when you determined your axle centerline? Do the tires deflect much with loading? I'm thinking about startng with "just touching the floor" and then maybe 1/4" lower, just to keep a little loading on the tires without raising the rear of the tank platform.
Top
#9559 - 11/16/12 07:35 PM Re: Wheel/tire selection for cylinder cart upgrade [Re: Locobreath]
Lu47Dan Online   content
MBN Old hand
Registered: 02/14/10
Posts: 1111
Loc: N/W Pa. ****
No preload on the tires, as the tank cart sets flat on the floor the tires just set on the floor.
I used the spindles from the car I got the spare tires from. I mounted them on a piece of 3" channel. Then I bolted the tires on the new axle, then clamped it to the cart. I did all this on my welding table.
I aired the tires up to what was marked on them before I put them on the axle.
With the tires just touching the floor the "foot" rotates up easily, and the cart can easily be placed against a wall.
The tire loading is not a problem. They roll across flat ground easily.
Dan.
_________________________
Tools are to Men as Shoes are to Women, you can never have too many!
Used diesel engines are an adventure anyway you look at them!
Top
#9569 - 11/17/12 03:59 PM Re: Wheel/tire selection for cylinder cart upgrade [Re: Lu47Dan]
Locobreath Offline
New in town
Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 10
Loc: Lexington, KY
Thanks, Dan.

Scored a couple of space savers from Jeep Cherokees at the U-Pull this morning. Think this will get it done?



Edited by Locobreath (11/18/12 05:10 PM)
Top
#9572 - 11/17/12 10:05 PM Re: Wheel/tire selection for cylinder cart upgrade [Re: Locobreath]
Lu47Dan Online   content
MBN Old hand
Registered: 02/14/10
Posts: 1111
Loc: N/W Pa. ****
They should.
You are welcome.
Dan.
_________________________
Tools are to Men as Shoes are to Women, you can never have too many!
Used diesel engines are an adventure anyway you look at them!
Top
#9575 - 11/18/12 05:57 AM Re: Wheel/tire selection for cylinder cart upgrade [Re: Lu47Dan]
mdlawnguy Offline
MBN Enthusiast
Registered: 03/07/10
Posts: 878
Loc: maryland *****
Guess your going to float those tanks on mud. Nice find..
Top
#9637 - 11/23/12 04:39 PM Re: Wheel/tire selection for cylinder cart upgrade [Re: mdlawnguy]
Locobreath Offline
New in town
Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 10
Loc: Lexington, KY
Worked on the cart a couple of hours this afternoon. Sliced off the angle steel "axle" from the cart, then removed the large bolts that were used as spindles. Used a cutoff wheel on a 4.5" grinder and then a sawzall to finish the first one. The second one was removed with my chop saw, clamping the work parallel to the blade and slicing just along the inner surface - much faster than the first method!

Cleaned up the old welds with a grinding wheel and then a flap wheel. After carefully measuring multiple times and rechecking, here is a mockup of the mounting for the new spindle.



The sharpie black line represents the outer edge of the cart upright. I mocked up the spindle and hub in the wheel, and this position should give me 1/2" clearance for the inner sidewall of the tire.

That leaves about 2-1/4" overlap between the axle (2"x2"x1/4") and the 1-1/4" diameter spindle stub. I was planning to weld lengthwise on the top and bottom (of course, it will be tacked first and the axle fitup for final placement).

I have a Miller Thunderbolt 225V AC buzz box and a Lincoln 175 amp mig. I was leaning toward using the stick. Do you see any problems with this method?

Thanks!
Top
#9653 - 11/24/12 06:19 AM Re: Wheel/tire selection for cylinder cart upgrade [Re: Locobreath]
Lu47Dan Online   content
MBN Old hand
Registered: 02/14/10
Posts: 1111
Loc: N/W Pa. ****
Loco, use whichever method you are most comfortable with.
If you decide on mig, then clean up the spindle and the angle very well. Mig does not like mill scale or rust, that also applies to 7018 rod too.
6011 rod would be alright in that application also.
If you have a longer piece of angle iron, it would be a good idea to extend the lap to about a 1/2" of the hub. The longer the lap the more resistant to bending it will be.
If you don't have another piece then add a brace from the carts frame to the front side of the axle to stiffen it up.
Dan.
_________________________
Tools are to Men as Shoes are to Women, you can never have too many!
Used diesel engines are an adventure anyway you look at them!
Top
#10114 - 01/12/13 05:03 PM Re: Wheel/tire selection for cylinder cart upgrade [Re: Lu47Dan]
Locobreath Offline
New in town
Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 10
Loc: Lexington, KY
Finally had a chance to work on this project today.



First, I cleaned the mill scale off the spindles and tack welded them to the old "axle" angle steel, using my MIG. I got these from Surplus Center - thanks to Clint for finding them!

Dan, I decided that bending wouldn't be a problem for this light loading, although I agree that if it was a real trailer, I should either use a longer piece of angle or brace it. Actually, I'm more concerned about my welding, LOL. I plan to finish weld using 6011, as Dan suggested, and my Miller AC buzzbox.



Lubed the bearings and installed the low-speed hubs and wheels.



Rolled the mocked-up axle assemble to the cart and temporarily clamped it in place. I wanted to verify the tire clearances before doing the finish welding on the spindles.



I also rolled the empty cart around a bit, checking the tilting action. I'm satisfied with the way it tilts. Next step will be finish welding the spindles. I need to do some final alignment checks on the spindles, although really it isn't critical for this application. After that, I'll clean the weld areas and weld the axle to the cart.
Top
#10207 - 01/19/13 05:54 PM Re: Wheel/tire selection for cylinder cart upgrade [Re: Locobreath]
Locobreath Offline
New in town
Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 10
Loc: Lexington, KY
Did the finish welding on the spindles, and welded the axle to the cart. Also did a little repair welding on the uprights - looks like Dad had changed his mind and cut the axle off with a torch at some point. There were some flame notches and I built them up with some weld passes, then used an angle grinder. It was good practice to run some non-critical passes.

Since I was fixing up Dad's torch cart, I decided to use his old Miller Thunderbolt 225AC. I hadn't used a stick welder in about 20 years (I have a Lincoln MIG), but it didn't seem too hard to get back in the swing - sort of like a bicycle.

I had cosmetically restored the welder a few years ago, but hadn't tried to weld with it. Upon power-up, the fan motor was squealing, but I pulled off the tinwork and a few drops of electric motor oil did the trick.

Dan, I used the 6011 as you suggested. I honestly don't know if I ever ran any of it before - I think I used to use whatever was in "inventory", but I may have well been using rods that were inappropriate for AC welding. The 6011 seemed to be a little more friendly to my limited welding skills. I'm not incredibly proud of any of the welds, but I thought the results were a bit better than what I had hoped for.
Top
#10208 - 01/19/13 06:43 PM Re: Wheel/tire selection for cylinder cart upgrade [Re: Locobreath]
TAP Offline
MBN member
Registered: 05/22/10
Posts: 166
Loc: ND
Looks like ya did a good job on that cart, there's a MPH limit on spacesaver tires, so keep it off the Highway... laugh

Looks Good..

Tim
Top
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >


Time
Donor Recognition 2010
Recent Posts
Mill Drill repair
by Lincoln
09:17 AM
m715 rebuild
by tom
07:09 PM
I couldn't pass it up
by GLyford
11/24/16 11:44 AM
THE BEAST (tracked personal vehicle)
by jeapadrenaline
11/22/16 09:47 PM
smiple centrifuge
by tom
11/21/16 11:38 PM
Kubota B7200
by terry
11/20/16 07:11 PM
Chargeur+ Kits & Product
by GLyford
11/16/16 03:54 PM
The "S" word...
by tom
11/16/16 12:32 PM
Still alive!!!
by sonny
11/13/16 06:17 PM
Truck repair
by mdlawnguy
11/12/16 02:35 PM
Search

Advertisers
Shout Box

File Locker
Donate to MBN
Today's Birthdays
No Birthdays

Machine Builders Network